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Author Topic: The Command Project - Fleet commanders  (Read 19603 times)
SirEmi
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2008, 10:31:40 PM »

Unless I read it wrong you said that you could have 2 marine commanders in one fleet would that also include the ability to use 2 differnt types of commanders on a fleet like 1 marine and 1 acu ?

You can only have one fleet commander commanding a fleet, so if you use 10 fleets you can have up to 10 FC on a battle.
But in the fleet commander mess hall, or the FC pool you can have more specialists of the same profession to choose from...

I belive that with some hard testing and balancing we can avoid immortal fleets  laugh

Hm, let's see the exp... 20 levels * 100.000 exp / 35 exp = 57.142 battles at let's say 10 turns to find / do a battle... 570.142 turns / 1440 turns a day... ug... 395 days... well you can do battle with 10 commanders, that makes it faster and of course get more exp to them with mission multiplier... or
you also use turns to train your commanders... 1 turn trains 15 exp to one fleet commander... use 133.333 turns and you have a lvl 20...

I don't see any problems with FC really, it's worth a try it could make combat way more interesting, we can make them die like ants or be super heroes, it's up to us 1
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 10:37:25 PM by SirEmi » Report to moderator   Logged

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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2008, 02:16:41 AM »

"that makes it faster and of course get more exp to them with mission multiplier... "
does this mean the multiplier is going to be on SO also by next round ?
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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2008, 02:30:00 AM »


Hm, let's see the exp... 20 levels * 100.000 exp / 35 exp = 57.142 battles at let's say 10 turns to find / do a battle... 570.142 turns / 1440 turns a day... ug... 395 days... well you can do battle with 10 commanders, that makes it faster and of course get more exp to them with mission multiplier... or
you also use turns to train your commanders... 1 turn trains 15 exp to one fleet commander... use 133.333 turns and you have a lvl 20...


The higher your encryption level the more missions you can do for 1 Turn. Say it costs on average 10 turns to fly to a new system, then you can do 10 - 100 missions at that sector. That is anywhere from 1 to 5 turns per mission. Let's call it 2 ... I can average a 750 Missions per day.  Factor in bonus turns from voting, Encounters and items ... So in less than 3 months, possibly 2 months, my FC's will be all level 20. People with less encrypt will be slower, people with more faster.

Now at lvl 20, I have a Fleet Commander that can ZERO someones atk. If said defender has swarmers out front, then I can just use a mission ship to board their fleets and steel/destroy all of them with ZERO chance of failure. Ergo Swarmers become useless. You can't defend with Swarmers, you have to defend with Mission ships, and we all know Swarmers eat Mission ships for breakfast. So unreserve Swarmers to kill anyone you like, then reserve at end of the day to keep them from being destroyed.

Cannot defend with Swarmers, cannot defend with Mission ships ... Cannot defend at all .. Cannot defend, no use in growing, no use in growing equals no use in playing.

That is one specific example of the hundreds of ways in which FC's as they stand will be bad for the game.

Also, if you put in FC's, in 2 months I'll have advantages 5 - 20 times more effective than the bonuses I have slaved over the last 6 months to generate. It'd be ok on SO Main I guess to completely rewrite the game mechanics, cause it resets every couple of months .. But on SO Wars it aint going to be fair no matter which way you look at it.

If the bonuses were capped in the 10 - 20% range then that would extreme, but ok .. Better to cap em in the 5-10% range.

Better yet to not base growth on clicks/hour ... Better yet to reduce number of necessary clicks per day  ... So .. all in all .. Still not happy with FC's as they stand, the whole mechanic and idea needs to be revamped imo.

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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2008, 02:40:13 AM »

wow i actually understood that and i dont like the sound of no defense at all
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« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2008, 01:14:24 PM »

Well - your kind of stealing my ideas here, as Im in process of writing a game and my commanders are fairly central to it 16  But I think Ill probably use a Medieval genre to start .. so I can share a bit I guess.

This is a good concept, the detail presented wont work, but its only a first pass .. so dont feel bad Emi, man if I had a dollar for everytime Tz has shot down my ideas before they were half formed 16

However, a rose isnt just a thorny stick - so yeah, theres issues here, mainly in the detail - but I generally like the concept.

Theres also a bunch of stuff in the concept that I think may be a problem, and I dont think any amount of tinkering with the details will resolve the issues.

1.  You cant really allow zero's, so modifiers should be multiplication not addition and subtracion.  You work with code, so you know theres a d**n good reason why you want to avoid zeros in code - also from a game mechanics point of view - zero's are ALWAYS bad. Also 100% is a 1, and that can be a problem in some cases as well - cant see anything specific - but its better to avoid 100%

2. Modifiers need to be within a reasonable limit.  Id suggest you dont want to allow commander mods to get as high as 100%.  Id suggest +/-10 to 20% is more than enough.  A commander who can give +20% is a pretty handy item for sure.

3. I dont really see any reason to have a penalty from the commanders.  A lot of adjustments can probably be designed out the ships they are on easily - making it a waste of time.  You want to make the commanders a useful commodity - and penalties just confuse the issue, possibly making some commanders less than worthless.  Balancing is also difficult if you introduce penalties.

4. XP - lets not re-visit the clicking / grinding pls.  Commander xp accumulated over time is far more satisfactory - that way the longer you can keep your commander alive the more use he will be.  Also players will all be in the same boat, new and old - no-one gets an advantage.

5.  The special abilities I like a lot - but balancing different abilities against each other is going to be very difficult.  I think its worth the trouble though - but you may not find everything out by play testing it for a month - when its live youll probably have to go in and adjust it again - obviously players dont usually like that - but if you want interesting abilities then your unlikely to sort it all out quickly - theres likely to be some way to exploit something that takes a long while to figure out.

THis is all the general stuff I think - Ill make a separate post to suggest some details.
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« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2008, 02:49:49 PM »

Emi, as youve presented it commanders will have two sets of modifiers, one set of permanent modifiers and one set of activated special abilities (Im assuming when you log off you can chose a default action for your commander).

As far as permanent bonuses are concerned, theres only really three combat abilities to chose from, attack, hit points and marines. 

The problem with accuracy and absorb is that they are absolutes, they have a discreet range between 0 and 100% - well 0 and 80% for absorb, adjusting them is always going to be messy and may result in unexpected issues ..

So attack, hit points and marines are all nice linear open ended values, good to apply modifiers to.

Id suggest commanders increase 3% in bonuses per 2 levels, this gives you a wide range of commander permanent bonuses.

Artilliary Commander  +3% Attack
Armour Commander +3% Hit Points
Marine Commander +3% Marines

Then you get a bunch of subsets;

Infantry Commander +1% attack, +2% marines
Tank Commander +1% attack, +2% hit points
Assualt Commander +1% marines, +2% attack
Mechanized Commander +1% marines, +2% hit points
Wing Commander +1% hit points, +2% attack
Stormtrooper Commander +1% hit points, +2% marines
Special Forces Commander +1% attack, +1% marines, +1% hit points

Special abilities that affect enemy ships can be ok, just need to make sure they arent over the top.

Marine Commander Abilities (any Commander with 1% or more marines bonus);

Lvl 5 - Evac Wounded: Reduce your marine casulties by 1% per commander level.
Lvl 10 - Extreme Prejudice: Increase the casulties of enemy marines by 1% per commander lvl.
Lvl 20 - Take Prisoners:  Capture 1% per commander level of the remaining enemy marines, this happens after combat is resolved.


Artilliary Commander abilities;

Lvl 5 - Concentrated Fire:  This fleet attacks position one of the enemy fleet with 1% per commander level of its attack power.  The remaining attack power is directed at the opposing fleet in this position.
Lvl 10 - First Fire:  Your ship fires first on the enemy ship(s) with 1% per commander level of your attack power.  Destroyed ships are removed.  Then a second round of combat ensues, where the remaining enemy return fire, and you return fire with your remaining attack power.
Lvl 20 - Scattering Fire:  Your fleet fires on all enemy fleets with 1% per commander level of its attack power.  Only one fleet in an armada may use scattering fire.


Armour Commander abilities;

Lvl 5 - Interception:  The enemy fleet in positon one fires on this fleet with 1% per commander level of its attack power, the remaining attack power is directed at the correct target.
Lvl 10 - Defensive Perimeter: The opposing enemy fleet divides 1% per commander level of its attack power evenly across your other fleets, the remainder is directed at this fleet.
Lvl 20 - Defensive Support:  The enemy fleet immediately above this fleet applies 1% per commander level of its attack power to this fleet, but that attack power is then halved, its remaining attack power is directed at the correct target.

Anyhow - some ideas.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2008, 02:56:06 PM by Amagnon » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2008, 04:16:20 PM »

Armour Commander abilities;

Lvl 5 - Interception:  The enemy fleet in positon one fires on this fleet with 1% per commander level of its attack power, the remaining attack power is directed at the correct target.
Lvl 10 - Defensive Perimeter: The opposing enemy fleet divides 1% per commander level of its attack power evenly across your other fleets, the remainder is directed at this fleet.
Lvl 20 - Defensive Support:  The enemy fleet immediately above this fleet applies 1% per commander level of its attack power to this fleet, but that attack power is then halved, its remaining attack power is directed at the correct target.

Anyhow - some ideas.

Lvl 5 and lvl 20 bonus make the enemy ships fire an additional shot at this fleet and lvl 10 divides the attack vs this fleet. Doesnt look that usefull 16
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« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2008, 05:32:24 PM »

personally i think that we should stay away from % bonuses and modifiers altogether, but if they are to be used, they should all be positive and extremely minor. essentially, if they give bonuses, the commanders are glorified items and their bonuses should reflect as much or be taken in an entirely new direction. one new direction is unique abilities (i listed a few examples earlier).

*note* a special ability is not just another % bonus, it is something that alters the normal game dynamic for example flipping hp and atk, taking marines prisoner, retreating from battle, firing before combat etc
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« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2008, 11:58:58 PM »

Armour Commander abilities;

Lvl 5 - Interception:  The enemy fleet in positon one fires on this fleet with 1% per commander level of its attack power, the remaining attack power is directed at the correct target.
Lvl 10 - Defensive Perimeter: The opposing enemy fleet divides 1% per commander level of its attack power evenly across your other fleets, the remainder is directed at this fleet.
Lvl 20 - Defensive Support:  The enemy fleet immediately above this fleet applies 1% per commander level of its attack power to this fleet, but that attack power is then halved, its remaining attack power is directed at the correct target.

Anyhow - some ideas.

Lvl 5 and lvl 20 bonus make the enemy ships fire an additional shot at this fleet and lvl 10 divides the attack vs this fleet. Doesnt look that usefull 16

The enemy fleet doesnt get "an additional shot" basically its attack power is divided between more targets.  WIth up to 20% of its attack being redirected as the defender choses.

If anything these abilities are a bit over powered.

Heres an example;

Your fleet set up is as follows;

Swarmers (Armour Commander) - Defensive perimeter (reduce dmg vs this fleet by up to 20%)
Swarmers (Artilliary Commander) - Concentrated Fire (attack enemy position 1 with extra fire power)
Big HP Boat (Armour Commander) - Defensive Support (reduce dmg vs your 2nd swarmers by up to 20%)
Big HP Boat (Armour Commander) - Interception (take up to 20% of enemy fleet ones firepower)

In this example, up to 40% of your opponents attack power from their position one fleet is redirected - minimising your swarmer losses.  Your second swarmer rank has damage vs them reduced by up to 20%, and your position one swarmer attack value is boosted up to 20%.

They are pretty good abilities, Im not sure if your just having a joke or not - each ability reduces the attack power of a specific enemy fleet by up to 20% - the attack power is actually redirected though, rather than being ignored. 

I can definitely say I woud have a use for this guy - distributing some of my enemies fire power how I want is a nifty ability.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2008, 12:25:08 AM by Amagnon » Report to moderator   Logged
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« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2008, 12:01:53 AM »

i think the fleet commander is a great idea but i don't think they should carry a penalty. thats just silly. when my brother goes out on a patrol he definatly gives them a bonus for range and accuracy, and he sure doesn't inflict a penalty on his own people. i have no clue why anyone would think that a specialist or "expert" in a particular area is going to inflict penalties. also i think the weakest bonus should be 5% and go up from there. sniper


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« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2008, 12:35:08 AM »

hey what about a custom commander option? sorta like the ship builder but for commander bonuses and abilities then emi can start small and just keep adding abilities for people to mix and match. players can use fleet commander points (fcp) to buy different abilities at different values or they could choose one for each level slot. an alternative for balancing could be that better commanders level at slower rates or cost a ridiculous amount more. as for wether or not this feature would unbalance things, the ability/bonus pricing would be done in such a way that things would be fair.

*note* it would also be possible to take negative modifiers in exchange for other bonuses to represent years of the commander's training/childhood spent elsewhere. a simple real world example of this would be dropping math in high school in order to take additional music courses (while these have little so combat application, u can get the basic idea).

(200'th post)
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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2008, 06:02:00 AM »

This idea sounds great but needs tweaking. 
I think bonuses should max at 30-50%.  Items max at roughly 35 and the commander would be a glorified item that is permanent.  As for XP gain, perhaps they could gain xp while you are offline as well to give the less active players a chance.  Say, 1xp/10 mins (96/day) 
I wouldn't mind seeing some other abilities as well.
Scavenger - Recieve 2X Items from missions.
Bounty Hunter - Recieve 2X Bounty Hunter Award.
Scholar - Gain XP faster
Tactical Commander - Increase swarm bonus
Drill Sergeant - A percent of rescued workers from Endangered Planet Missions become Marines for free.
Shipwright - Gives a discount on un-reserving fleets.

I also like the idea of building commanders.  And get rid of the penalties.  Just make the bonus lower.
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2008, 11:44:37 AM »

i like those ideas prophet, but the more swarm bonus, if maxed at 3-50% like u said, would completely unbalance everything. then u could get 8k ships that are supers and they would be unbeatable.
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« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2008, 07:51:39 PM »

bump  16  when is this going to happen?
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« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2008, 07:03:02 PM »

bump  16  when is this going to happen?
With some luck when the current round is done 12
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