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General Talk => Design & Strategy Room => Topic started by: ars68 on May 05, 2006, 11:01:16 AM



Title: Swarmer Help
Post by: ars68 on May 05, 2006, 11:01:16 AM
ok, for those who want help with swarmers, first off, right now it may not be to good an idea, as swarm bonus, necessary to make a good swarmer, has been cut down drastically.  so if you want a good design, you will have to make it larger then average, as in I suggest nothing less then 500 space.

1: every credit counts.  make sure that no system costs more then 10 credits max, 1 is best.

2: don't forget accuracy.  keeping it at 1% may look good on it's base attack, but it makes it next to worthless in actual combat, especially against well designed ships.

3: defense, defense, defense.  unlike superships, which use extremely high HP to take no losses, the only way to take no losses with swarmers is defense.  the reason is that the defense is taken as a group fleet defense, or the defense times how many ships you have, and no damage at all will be taken unless the enemy does more damage then that fleet defense.  thois defense is further helped by it increasing from swarm bonus.

4: sheilds, optional, but helpful.  sheilds can help a lot, but will also make it much more costly, making it unpractical for VERY small ships (like less then 10k credits ships) however, if you are making relativiely large swarmers, such as I have advised, it is good to put in 2-3 sheilds to help lessen damage further.  but make sure it is off of excess resources, not the main thing of the ship. IE: even 99% Sheild won't help at all if you can only withstand 100 damage.

there you go, everything else you will have to figure out on your own :)


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 05, 2006, 01:39:26 PM
Stickied!


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 05, 2006, 09:18:24 PM
Woot! I've started a trend. ^_^

Anyways, swarmers are meant to be used in bulk, big bulk, remember that.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 05, 2006, 11:13:48 PM
This is why being a moderator is fun. You get to mess with the boards and confuse people when you move or sticky/desticky topics!!!!


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Final on May 07, 2006, 09:20:55 PM
i just got hundreds of thousands of swarmers...in one fleet,
is that a big enough of bulk, or do i need to keepo builing


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 08, 2006, 07:23:38 AM
Depends on how much space it has. You want to get the max swarm bonus. Post the amount of space, and ars will be able to tell you if you need more (not exactly how much, but a good guess.)


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 08, 2006, 01:51:52 PM
How about... 23?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: FTP on May 08, 2006, 06:20:11 PM
35k


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 08, 2006, 07:05:44 PM
Well, looks like FTP knows the swarm bonus formula too, lol.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: FTP on May 09, 2006, 02:38:57 AM
Nope I have no idear but a ship of 22 hull had I thoughed 36k :P


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 09, 2006, 11:35:16 AM
Ah, ok. Well, more of an idea then me, lol.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: ars68 on May 09, 2006, 05:48:01 PM
well, the thing about swarmers is this: you are going for a good overall FLEET, rather then a good single ship.  since the more swarmers you have the better your fleet, you want to get as many as possible. 

also, here is your choice, both can be viable options.

HP: using mostly HP will mean much mroe chance of your fleet over all surviving, but not without large losses every time. 

Defense: using mostly Defense means it is possible that your fleet can take 0 damage, hence 0 losses.  however, IF the enemy breaks through the defense, it will mean VERY high, if not total, losses of your fleet.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: fat monkey13 on May 10, 2006, 12:08:46 PM
hp goes up very quickly thanks to swarm bonus though
i've used a 60k hp swarmer and once it reached 5000 ships in the fleet, it had over 420k hp


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Final on May 12, 2006, 08:02:54 PM
i modified the vindicator design so it had a decent defense and hp balance. it did take 2 more space, but it was worth it. now even if my fleet;s defence is destoryed, its got the hp as a cushion to prevent most losses


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 12, 2006, 10:49:05 PM
Does anyone know the equation for calculating swarm bonus? Or even a rough estimate?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: ars68 on May 13, 2006, 08:43:10 AM
do a forum search for swarm bonus, I'm not really sure on that anymore, especially know the sir e changed it after :P the tinyman scam :P  ok, lol, just kidding.  but really, he changed how it affects attack and defense.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 15, 2006, 01:59:45 PM
I think gold members can do it (I'm one and I don't even know, lol. Never used that confounding experience calculator, it's too confusing.) but Sir Emi had it posted in the old forum....he should post the new one somewhere.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Final on May 18, 2006, 06:54:56 PM
how good is the tinyman design really?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 18, 2006, 10:08:27 PM
Probably quite awful now with the swarm bonus adjustments 'n stuff.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 19, 2006, 08:03:33 AM
It was great, now it's horrible. If it was still really good, we wouldn't be telling you about it, lol. That and everyone's power would be WAY lower.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 20, 2006, 02:13:51 PM
How many ships would it take to max out swarm bonus with a 1K hull fleet?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on May 22, 2006, 01:17:44 PM
hm, probably close to 100k is my guess, but is just a guess.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 22, 2006, 05:15:18 PM
Hmm, so the bigger the hull, the more ships needed? 'Cause 23 takes about 35k.

100... Woot! *fireworks* *splosions*


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Valefore on May 22, 2006, 08:37:00 PM
Wow, either I'm just dumb, or I heard incorrectly the first time, but I always thought it was the otherway around, the smaller the hull is the, the larger the number before the swarm bonus maxed out.....


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: FTP on May 23, 2006, 02:22:39 AM
Think he thoughed 1k hull fleet ship worth 1k credits on hull would be 6 space. That would indeed be close to the 100k ships swarm bonus


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 23, 2006, 09:47:28 PM
Oh, well I meant 1K space, anybody know?

'Nother question, is there any way for a 1 space ship to not suck? (Other than for scouting, of course.)


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: CTPEJIOK on May 24, 2006, 04:24:14 AM
Oh, well I meant 1K space, anybody know?

'Nother question, is there any way for a 1 space ship to not suck? (Other than for scouting, of course.)
High defence and big ammount


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 24, 2006, 04:52:42 AM
1 space ships can't have defence because it requires power, and both a special and a powercore would require a minimum of 2 space sense they both require at least 1 space.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Valefore on May 24, 2006, 06:19:17 PM
if you dont care about the cost, go for a one space with ahigghhhhh amount of armor.. (HP).


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: ars68 on May 25, 2006, 05:39:58 PM
last round, it was possible to design a 1 space ship with a couple k or so hp, and then watch it's HP jump into the mill's each, easy, making it a very good boarder, but that has been changed, where HP will be MUCH lower (the 1 space ship would have equivalent of old 16 space ship in swarm bonus)

but ya, you need a minimum of at LEAST 2 space to do anything with it other then adding an armour or marine pod, but with 0 hp 0 defense, marine pod would just mean even more waste of money.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 25, 2006, 08:46:06 PM
You could use 1 hull marine pod swarmers to take out no attack wall ships, couldn't you? You know, like Imihir.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: shaneblack on May 31, 2006, 05:29:35 AM
Guys, seems as your all so much better than me could you tell me if these are good stats for a swarmer, and roughly how many ships I would need for a good bonus:
Attack     Defence     Hitpoints
78426       796       3632
Attack accuracy     Absorb Power
   10 %            22%


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on May 31, 2006, 02:09:14 PM
What's its hull?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: shaneblack on June 01, 2006, 04:40:23 AM
500 hull


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Seither on June 06, 2006, 05:51:04 AM
Is anyone going to tell him how many he needs for max swarm or not? He did ask you know....


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: gibr0001 on June 15, 2006, 06:22:57 AM
Hello everyone, I am new here.
How much defense should an around 50 space swarmer has?
Mine got 15 lol.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Peter Angelo on June 15, 2006, 07:10:00 AM
4: sheilds, optional, but helpful.  sheilds can help a lot, but will also make it much more costly, making it unpractical for VERY small ships (like less then 10k credits ships) however, if you are making relativiely large swarmers, such as I have advised, it is good to put in 2-3 sheilds to help lessen damage further.  but make sure it is off of excess resources, not the main thing of the ship. IE: even 99% Sheild won't help at all if you can only withstand 100 damage.

Now hold on a cotton pick'n second, from what I remember from the guide, shields are for protecting troops during a boarding attempt, are you telling me that they have a duel roll of both protecting troops and absorbing damage?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Chronos on June 15, 2006, 02:03:30 PM
It also affects how much your ACU drops in between attacks during a battle, I believe.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: ars68 on June 15, 2006, 05:08:46 PM
shaneblack: max swarm bonus: no idea, however, in general, the smaller the hull, the bigger max bonus, and the only sure way it seems now is to simply keep adding ships till the stats stop going up.  and as far as how good it is, bring the ACC higher, 10% means only 10% that attack will be used to hit the enemy.  and it depends on how much it cost, on a swarmer, you should try to keep all cost from the hull size itself, meaning that ship should cost somewhere around 82.500 to 82.600.  remember, if the system costs 1000, and it still costs 1000 even though you lower it's stats, that means the cost is actually in negative, and you can raise it's stats AND make it cheaper at the same time.

gibr0001: that is good, however, you have to remember, the second ANY attack goes through your defense, almost 99/100 times, you will end up losing your ENTIRE fleet.  so you better be ready to make LOTS of them to make sure it never happens.  also, you may want to look towards superships, as they are generally better for use on missions and such.

Peter Angelo: yes

Chronos: no, at least, I doubt it highly.  and as far as the 1 hull boarder vs. swarm wall with no attack, ya, that would work, but that would be it.  more then likely, it would be much better to just build a normal ship with marines and use that.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: shaneblack on June 17, 2006, 04:51:32 AM
Well It dont really matter now coz I goit rid of the ships coz they always get obliterated, but thx nonetheless


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: xthex on September 01, 2006, 02:24:39 AM
hey this may seem off topic but it aint can any one teach me how to steup a good defense for a SWARMER ship. and whats a decent ship size for a swarmer if you guys could help me message me on the game liberator i really need help new at swarmers


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: xthex on September 01, 2006, 02:49:41 AM
200,000ships gives 56 mill power it costs 6.865 credits for 1
is that any good and wats the sarmer bonus and other stuff


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: basill on July 08, 2007, 12:06:10 AM
What is the recomended acuracy(range) for a swarmer ?


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Cameron07 on July 08, 2007, 12:57:24 PM
well i use 8% it just depends on the size of the swarmer and the person making it


Title: KrisWald - First Post
Post by: KrisWald on October 21, 2007, 04:08:46 AM
First and ForeMost its late... im tired... and im skimming through all the posts... someone asked about some swarm bonuses and effects and i almost dont even want to let out any information because it will make the competition that much stronger... thats what alliances are for...

Anyways

500 hull size maxes out at 8000 ships... in fact almost any hull size over 80 or so maxes out at 8000 ships... here are some eh... rough sketches of info ive collected thus far:
(hullsize-----Ships needed to max bonus-----various multiplications ive collected....)

2   -37600  7.713xattack47.953xHP 6471 49912attack...   1031 HP=49440
15     -21600    4.85xattack
16   -20700-21000
17   -20000   
18   -   4.42xattack?  25.5xhp
19   -   4.42xattack?  25.5xhp
25   -16000    3.85xattack
33   -13600    
50   -9600     2.75xattack
190    -8000   
375   -8000   2.4281xAttack 2.372xDef 10.985x HP
as u can see no matter how big the hull gets it almost always gets double attack double defense 10x HP no matter how big.....
however at size 2 37600 ships maxes out and u get almost 8x attack...50xhp...
however at size 2 its extremely expensive... i had to test this out for myself :( burned billions :P and 1 space powercore 1 space weapon means no armor health or anything... strictly suicide... or viceversa u can have 2 space armor.... but eh cost a fortune....

however if emi needs some fleets made.... and ppl are stupid enough to turn off their cost calculators... =] id love to make some designs for him.... id make some really nasty killer designs =] since cost would be little option... =]

Ive been working on some swarming designs and i've come to some conclusions...

#1 Swarmers are good....
#2 Swarmers to be Decent are for the RICH
#3 Swarmers need to be BIG 500 aint big enough either... i spend 296 space on just my comps and shields alone on any ship...
#4 Swarmers should definately use Defense and Perhaps low dmg High Accuracy.... And how will you ever do 1 trillion dmg u ask?
Answer is easy... buy more SHIPS :P I build all ships defensively though... yet i still lose them on encounters ;(
Prolly shouldnt send 317million fp ships in to a 2.2 billion supernova though... some stupidity somewhere....

As for what is a good swarm design.. im still learning swarms my best advice on building yourself a swarmer... is Build an Ultimate Supership.... get 99%accuracy 80% abs... after ur tech bonuses of course.... and make sure the energy you spend is high enough that your hitpoints are using 5x the energy of the shields... atleast.... and that your attack is still after the accuracy % about = to your cost of the ship.... Now that you have this ultimate super ship smile to yourself and say... SHIP #1 of my swarm.... take the cost of that and ask yourself how you are gonna be able to get enough for 8000... after you calculate it out and find out it will take roughly 3 years at your income you will have to come to the same conclusion.... either A... reserve every ship after you buy it and wait 2 long years... or B.... build Bigger ships keeping in mind that is just ur swarm.... the smallest ship in your arsenal... max out your encrypts... get the bonuses.... max out your workers.... they are limited by your segs... increase your income.... increase your tech which will lower the cost of everything and once you get in the quadrillions.... start forming your swarm....

Ever play WarCraft? if so tell me what happens if you build a farm barracks altar and immediately start making units? and forget to buy 5-7 extra workers at the very start... ill tell you... your opponent gets double the wood... and gold atleast wood... expands faster... techs faster... has better units/more units.... and you wonder why you have been out of wood all game long... STRONG ECONOMIES forge strong nations... every great warlord knows this... just ask the king of the SO WARS #1 position... my current alliance leader.. The Broken.

I'm sure he will tell you im not perfect at designing but im getting the hang of it... and even broken making more than anyone i know can not afford a full size fleet of what i call "DECENT" Swarmers.... but maybe in 1 year he will.... =]

Now on the flipside... Other Strategies you can implement... Keeping your FP LOW LOW LOW..... how to do this? well every 1000 workers/credits counts as 1 FP right? so... dont buy workers...Keep 100billion in stash.... why not workers? cos u cant sell them or liquidate them of course... this keeps ur fp pretty low but gives you income of 10 bil per day.... Now then... Build a ship.... 10billion credits to buy of course.... put almost all of the energy.... like 90% of it into defense and shields.... and the other 10% into accuracy and attack..... i know efficiency you might say its wasting energy to raise accuracy rather than increase damage... you are right... however we dont want to increase the FP of a single ship hardly at all... :P put said ship into your fleet every day... CONTINUE with missions.... what does this mean? its simple.... your FP will be soooo low you might laugh... but you will never lose a ship to any Mission you do.... If you dont feel like buying more ships because u are positive you have enough... then i guess hold it in your hand for a while as backup....

you might end up with 10billion defense and 1billion attack... nothing wrong with that =]

Of course your income will always be low... but you can still continue to do missions all the way up to 600 with no problem... dont touch encounters though if they are much higher than you... if you cant kill encounter in first 4-5 tries just give up dont risk dying.

also use pships... ur fp will be so low per ship that pships will be rather cheap youll find and will be helpful when ppl attack... use 10 fleets so they cant touch ur main swarm no matter what... do this for a year and when ur to lvl 2000 encyrpt then i guess your FP will reflect almost total power in your swarm.... and you may not have the best swarm but anyone near your power wont be able to touch you.... =]

Still id rather go supership til i hit quadrillions :P afterall 95% evasion... ill still hit you :P might take 20 tries but eh ill get ya :P


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: TheMerchant on October 22, 2007, 10:04:41 PM
swarmers are definately for the rich and i personally think the best swarmers are small and cheap. not giving a way to much info. but id say less than 100 hull size and 10k per ship. (that right there is like the way overdoing it, too me ;) ) Swarmers, in my opinion, defensive ships(SO WARS) and suck major B@lls when used in missons... so yeah dont use them for that. also the smaller the ship the more swarm bonus you get.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Gunfighter Frank on October 23, 2007, 09:56:01 PM
any ship below 15 hull is counted as 15 hull as far as swarm bonuses go


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: KenquinnTheInsaneOne on October 23, 2007, 10:11:25 PM
any ship below 15 hull is counted as 15 hull as far as swarm bonuses go


Not according to the Gold Account Swam Mod Calculator.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Gunfighter Frank on October 23, 2007, 10:15:20 PM
that has not be updated since the change was made


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: TheMerchant on October 24, 2007, 12:06:18 AM
i really, i waste quite clear on that matter thanks Frank L:)



Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Dylan Wolf on October 24, 2007, 12:10:07 AM
swarmers are definately for the rich 

im use swarmers all the time and im not rich only 1000 per ship can make loads of the fast cheap and easy let the big ships do defense while the little ships do missions


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: KenquinnTheInsaneOne on October 25, 2007, 10:03:48 PM
that has not be updated since the change was made


I messaged Sir Emi about it and it seems he fixed it.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: TheMerchant on October 25, 2007, 10:52:44 PM

im use swarmers all the time and im not rich only 1000 per ship can make loads of the fast cheap and easy let the big ships do defense while the little ships do missions

thats where you are wrong swarmers are sum wat for defence and "big ships" are for attack. youll save more money that way. also that may be why you are poor ;)


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Dylan Wolf on October 26, 2007, 03:37:46 PM
I never said i was poor  :4: i am though :))    but they are cheap if you do it right.  and its the only ship i can design right


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: TheMerchant on October 26, 2007, 08:11:47 PM
actually, you may think you are designing them right, but they might end up being super inefficient... while with super ships there is on basic way to desgin them.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: Darth0wned on March 25, 2008, 06:52:01 PM
lol, i like the trainee fighter you are given, i am gathering swarmers for defence, and i also use supership for attack, but i am not sure the best design for a swarmer, so i stick with the fighters, if any one can point me in the right direction i would be very grateful


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: malak16 on April 15, 2008, 04:41:55 AM
what about super swarmers for soWAR im gettong different opinons on the usefulness ...

 :yawn:


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: qe2eqe on August 29, 2008, 11:35:07 PM
Well, cheap + high fleet count + defense won't help you much, because higher fleet count => higher fleet power => higher attack against you on PvE*. Defense is just so frikken expensive, if you account for swarm bonus of 10x, it's still more expensive than hp by 5x, and that's withoout the 10fold advantage of max abs.


*Just reminding you that outnumbering PvE should take back seat to outperforming the randoms.


Title: Re: Swarmer Help
Post by: tip on April 06, 2009, 10:30:47 AM
swarmers are definately for the rich and i personally think the best swarmers are small and cheap. not giving a way to much info. but id say less than 100 hull size and 10k per ship. (that right there is like the way overdoing it, too me ;) ) Swarmers, in my opinion, defensive ships(SO WARS) and suck major B@lls when used in missons... so yeah dont use them for that. also the smaller the ship the more swarm bonus you get.
I am trying to figure out how to design a swarmer.

So please, how to design a swarmer with 100 hull size with less than 10K budget?

Can anyone help?


Title: Re: KrisWald - First Post
Post by: tip on April 06, 2009, 10:46:47 AM
First and ForeMost its late... im tired... and im skimming through all the posts... someone asked about some swarm bonuses and effects and i almost dont even want to let out any information because it will make the competition that much stronger... thats what alliances are for...

...

also use pships... ur fp will be so low per ship that pships will be rather cheap youll find and will be helpful when ppl attack... use 10 fleets so they cant touch ur main swarm no matter what... do this for a year and when ur to lvl 2000 encyrpt then i guess your FP will reflect almost total power in your swarm.... and you may not have the best swarm but anyone near your power wont be able to touch you.... =]

Still id rather go supership til i hit quadrillions :P afterall 95% evasion... ill still hit you :P might take 20 tries but eh ill get ya :P

Can someone please tell me what a PSHIP is?