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Title: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 07, 2008, 10:13:23 PM 2008-05-07 01:59:33
FULL ASSAULT - REGULAR!!! Silhouette(#7348) attacked your from deep space. Silhouette(#7348) destroyed 0 of your ships and lost 2 ships. Silhouette(#7348)s attack failed. Silhouette(#7348) fleet was no match for your forces. 2008-05-07 02:01:39 Evaded Attack! Evil Genius(#720)'s fleet and mothership tried to attack your mothership. Your slim mothership engines were able to evade the attacking mothership. You are safe for now... but your hasty retreat warped you into unknown territory... 2008-05-07 02:02:00 COUNTER - FULL ASSAULT - BOARD!!! Evil Genius(#720) boarded your fleet and mothership. Evil Genius(#720) destroyed 43202 of your ships and lost 12905089 ships. 1132 ships from Mobius13(#2028) J-Imperial Defender fleet captured during battle. 222 ships from Mobius13(#2028) J-Imperial Defender fleet captured during battle. You spent 177.290.975.976 credits to ressuply the fleets with marines. Evil Genius(#720) attack was successful and you lost 413885 segments. Your forces suffered a terrible defeat. this cannot be a "favor" since the account seems to be made recently, and the attack followed 2 minutes later. Can someone do something about this? Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: waylain16 on May 08, 2008, 12:31:29 AM Yea the times are way to close to be a favor or anything other that can be explained
THIS is alt abuse Both accounts should be banned Send this report to Sir emi Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: whitelightercarl on May 08, 2008, 04:28:09 AM :12: He should be sanctioned for using an alt but he shouldn't be banned IMO :atention:
-------------------------------------------------------------- Mob I just punished him for you, just look at the board msg :D Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: ~kempy~ on May 08, 2008, 10:47:23 AM the rules are obvious
its common sense about alternate accounts i havent read the rules but i do know them this is direct malicious rule abuse and the guys a retard for doing it 2 minutes after a retarded rule breaker wont stop and needs to be taught a lesson id ban but it isnt my decision Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: waylain16 on May 08, 2008, 12:49:19 PM Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 04:34:19 PM Umm. ok, 1st, NEITHER of these accounts are new, not even close.
Silhouette(#7348) onmain, we're in the 5 digits, on wars, they've past 8k, and on PvE they're well under this iirc. Secondly, COUNTER - FULL ASSAULT - BOARD!!! this means it is a counter to an attack YOU made on him, so this is definitely not a favor, or even NEAR an abuse of alts. You don't have any strong evidence of alts, let alone any real reason to be claiming abuse of ToS, which it isn't, neither account is benifiting the other here, even fi the attacks were cordinated, they could be alliance mates, ect. All of which is perfectly legal. Alts=only illegal when used to benifit ONE single account. I'll leave this topic unlocked for now, in case you actually have decent evidence, but as it stands, no ToS has been broken. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: waylain16 on May 08, 2008, 04:38:23 PM The first attack was a scout to make sure that he could take his counter
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 04:42:38 PM The first attack was a scout to make sure that he could take his counter or it was an innocent attack being blown out of proportion. Especially as there was an evaded attack between them, if he knew he could take it, he woulda known the power, thus no evaded attack. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Cameron07 on May 08, 2008, 05:27:20 PM i completely disagree with you on this seither.. ive seen it done many times before.. and noobs just dont innocently scout the bigger players on wars and less than minutes later someone big attack you, and they are not alliance mates either
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: jessiedog on May 08, 2008, 05:29:38 PM the best evidence is that the number of the first player shows that he was made around the time of the attack. mob has substantial evidence, it would be best if emi were told about this.
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 08, 2008, 05:32:25 PM I've scouted a target with alts before i knew it was against TOS... and i got in trouble for it.
I dont think its fair that he gets to get away with it. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: jessiedog on May 08, 2008, 05:33:36 PM if im not mistaken, doesn't evil genius = silverthorne? aka a mod?
mob, maybe message him in-game, he is a fairly credible source, if the above is correct. but still, emi should be brought in Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: whitelightercarl on May 08, 2008, 05:59:14 PM Seither, Silhouette's attack is a scouting run to verify if he can successfully attack mob.. He scouted with an alt coz he want to save some turns.. :)
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 06:09:23 PM No, emi should not be brought in, as once again, you all are going off ASSUMING these two people are the same. 1) just because there aren't alliances doesn't mean people don't team up, 2) just because he's a new player doesn't mean he wouldn't scout a bigger player, becuase EVERYONE is bigger than him. Maybe he decided to see if he could take you himself and learned he couldn't, or maybe he was looking for ships to copy if he's a gold, or ideas, there are a LOT of reasons he may have scouted you, 3) if we brought emi into EVERY supposed case of illegal alt use, he'd never get anything else done, becuase we get reports like this all the time, and rarely is it actually alt abuse.
and the big part of it is, a recent number is NOT evidence of alt abuse, or even of it being an alt. There is a reason I'm the only other moderator besides emi in this thread, and that's because I have been here a long time, and understand the ToS well, and alt rules. so once again, at this time, there is NO evidence of an alt abuse. I will talk to Silverthorne about Evil Genius, if that's not silver, he knows him I'm sure. I'll leave the topic unlocked for now, however, unless USEABLE and CREDIBLE evidence of these two being alts can be brought forward, I will lock this topic. We do not just accuse players off of a recent number, it's not evidence, let alone credible, as the amount of people who join, and at what speed changes, maybe he made that account 3 days ago and practically no one has joined since, did you think about that? Seither, Silhouette's attack is a scouting run to verify if he can successfully attack mob.. He scouted with an alt coz he want to save some turns.. :) Once again, I demand EVIDENCE. Until i see some, and more than so and so's word, or someone's number, my ruling stands as it is not an alt attack. Topic remains unlocked for a little longer for evidence to be supplied, however, if no is given soon, it will be locked. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Cameron07 on May 08, 2008, 06:24:22 PM okay boss.. i'll go fingerprint the newer account
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 08, 2008, 06:28:28 PM I've attacked him before several times... and i was scouted by a different account several minutes before the counter. I'm not saying it was him that time, but it gives me reason to post here and reason for him to be checked.
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 06:33:54 PM okay boss.. i'll go fingerprint the newer account cameron, don't be a smartass, in this area of the forum, you're a normal member. And credible evidence would be: logs of attacks against other players at nearly same time by same accounts. messages with player admitting that other is his alt, or with strong hinting of it. logs of repeated attacks by same to accounts against yourself. chat logs somehow suggesting/tying the two accounts together in which one or both of the accounts are talking about the attack(s) IP addresses are not accepted unless given by Snipedragon or Emi, as other players may be prone to lie about them. Any of those will be suffiecient, otherwise everyone could accuse everyone else of being someone's alt by reason of number/ect. And many alts are made shortly after, if not immediately after the first account, not several thousand numbers afterward. Especially on Wars, where sign up is very slow. I've attacked him before several times... and i was scouted by a different account several minutes before the counter. I'm not saying it was him that time, but it gives me reason to post here and reason for him to be checked. then ge tthe logs from log history, they'll still be there. Otherwise you have no claim unfortunately. anyone can say they have been attack by these people, doesn't mena they were, hence why Emi created logs, so we can SEE what really happened, no more he said vs they said. So, please supply the logs, and I'll alert emi and snipe so an IP investigation may be conducted. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 08, 2008, 06:36:05 PM you mean the log from this attack or from my example? I doubt I'll have th logs for the latter since it was about 6 months ago...
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: jessiedog on May 08, 2008, 06:37:00 PM that sounds fair siether, thanks
mob, check the chiss alliance board for the relative time, i dont think matt ever deletes it Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 06:40:24 PM you mean the log from this attack or from my example? I doubt I'll have th logs for the latter since it was about 6 months ago... logs are held for a long time, you should still have some of them, if not all, and they don't need to be detailed (ship attacks ship, ect) just the simple you were attacked, scouted, ect by so-so is enough. We just need a bit of hard evidence before we launch an investigation. And yes, you have areason to be suspicious of these accounts, but it's not enough of a grounds for us to investigate them. Innocent before proven guilty and all. If someone accused you of alt abuse, you'd want them to have at least a little bit f credible evidence before you were investigated, because on her, once oyu're investigated, to other players that's as good as convicted. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: whitelightercarl on May 08, 2008, 06:42:37 PM We need an IP check here :12:
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 08, 2008, 06:45:48 PM Segments
Action Segments Remaining Mission Reward +50 2.004.833 2008-05-05 18:37:49 my last log in the last page, the mentioned attack took place around 3-6 months before this... Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 06:46:46 PM We need an IP check here :12: IP checks are only accepted if doen by Snipedragon or Emi himself, and are only acceted if they did, as a player my purposely report info wrong. Also, IP check does not mean that it IS the same person. If 2 people play on the same computer, then they have the same IP. this is why we need logs first, we can't really claim alt abuse otherwise, and this is why alt abuse is very hard to prove. Hardest part of ToS to prove, due to many people having one computer per household, and multiple people playing on that computer. Segments Action Segments Remaining Mission Reward +50 2.004.833 2008-05-05 18:37:49 my last log in the last page, the mentioned attack took place around 3-6 months before this... look on your alliance board, ssee if you have any previous posting of th attacks on their, those can be accepted as well. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 08, 2008, 06:49:08 PM I've gone through +900 pages of my old alliance's board about a week ago... I dont recall seeing any important conversations about Evil Genius or an attack by him.
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: whitelightercarl on May 08, 2008, 06:50:08 PM Mob don't message evil genius yet, he got a counter from me so he might use the same tactics again.. Let's see wat he will do. :14:
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 08, 2008, 06:52:08 PM Mob don't message evil genius yet, he got a counter from me so he might use the same tactics again.. Let's see wat he will do. :14: should he do the same thing/similar (even if the next account that scouts right before is a different account) that will be more than acceptable evidence. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: mgc on May 09, 2008, 06:55:22 AM if i were him and read the forum, id think twice about doing that..
maybe make individual threads in the report abuse section visible only to those that made the thread (and mods / admins ofcourse) that should ensure a possible offender is not alarmed btw seither, if he has a friend scout, couldnt he have more then 1 friend? so having another account then the first scout before strike is no evidence (xept for teamwork) that is ofcourse assuming hes innocent, as requested Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: jessiedog on May 09, 2008, 04:39:05 PM mgc, the point is not to catch him and ban him, the point is to stop this from happening. if he saw this thread and stopped, our goal would have been acheived
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: mgc on May 09, 2008, 05:56:40 PM mm ur way to kind but i suppose it works if it works lol
Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 09, 2008, 06:01:38 PM Can i at least get my segs back? lol j/k :P
but he has another counter on me now... if he does it again i will post it Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 11, 2008, 02:38:24 AM if i were him and read the forum, id think twice about doing that.. maybe make individual threads in the report abuse section visible only to those that made the thread (and mods / admins ofcourse) that should ensure a possible offender is not alarmed btw seither, if he has a friend scout, couldnt he have more then 1 friend? so having another account then the first scout before strike is no evidence (xept for teamwork) that is ofcourse assuming hes innocent, as requested true, it does not mean he IS guilty, however, it IS reason enough to at least investigate to ensure it's not the same person. That's what I mean. We need some evidence before we look into the situation and see if it is. mgc, the point is not to catch him and ban him, the point is to stop this from happening. if he saw this thread and stopped, our goal would have been acheived Well, sorta. The point is to prevent thsi from happening at all, so if seeing thsi he realizes he was wrong and never does it again, than ya, otherwise, the point IS to catch him and punish him for breaking ToS. So you were sorta right. Just post the attack info here if it happens.Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 11, 2008, 06:37:13 PM Well he countered... but he didnt scout with an alt, so i guess im fine now :)
If he does it again ill post here Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: deezee66 on May 11, 2008, 10:15:14 PM No, emi should not be brought in, as once again, you all are going off ASSUMING these two people are the same. 1) just because there aren't alliances doesn't mean people don't team up, 2) just because he's a new player doesn't mean he wouldn't scout a bigger player, becuase EVERYONE is bigger than him. Maybe he decided to see if he could take you himself and learned he couldn't, or maybe he was looking for ships to copy if he's a gold, or ideas, there are a LOT of reasons he may have scouted you, 3) if we brought emi into EVERY supposed case of illegal alt use, he'd never get anything else done, becuase we get reports like this all the time, and rarely is it actually alt abuse. and the big part of it is, a recent number is NOT evidence of alt abuse, or even of it being an alt. There is a reason I'm the only other moderator besides emi in this thread, and that's because I have been here a long time, and understand the ToS well, and alt rules. so once again, at this time, there is NO evidence of an alt abuse. I will talk to Silverthorne about Evil Genius, if that's not silver, he knows him I'm sure. I'll leave the topic unlocked for now, however, unless USEABLE and CREDIBLE evidence of these two being alts can be brought forward, I will lock this topic. We do not just accuse players off of a recent number, it's not evidence, let alone credible, as the amount of people who join, and at what speed changes, maybe he made that account 3 days ago and practically no one has joined since, did you think about that? Seither, Silhouette's attack is a scouting run to verify if he can successfully attack mob.. He scouted with an alt coz he want to save some turns.. :) Once again, I demand EVIDENCE. Until i see some, and more than so and so's word, or someone's number, my ruling stands as it is not an alt attack. Topic remains unlocked for a little longer for evidence to be supplied, however, if no is given soon, it will be locked. Seither contacting Emi is the only way to put this issue to rest, no disrespect intended. :14: Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 13, 2008, 02:09:43 AM No, emi should not be brought in, as once again, you all are going off ASSUMING these two people are the same. 1) just because there aren't alliances doesn't mean people don't team up, 2) just because he's a new player doesn't mean he wouldn't scout a bigger player, becuase EVERYONE is bigger than him. Maybe he decided to see if he could take you himself and learned he couldn't, or maybe he was looking for ships to copy if he's a gold, or ideas, there are a LOT of reasons he may have scouted you, 3) if we brought emi into EVERY supposed case of illegal alt use, he'd never get anything else done, becuase we get reports like this all the time, and rarely is it actually alt abuse. and the big part of it is, a recent number is NOT evidence of alt abuse, or even of it being an alt. There is a reason I'm the only other moderator besides emi in this thread, and that's because I have been here a long time, and understand the ToS well, and alt rules. so once again, at this time, there is NO evidence of an alt abuse. I will talk to Silverthorne about Evil Genius, if that's not silver, he knows him I'm sure. I'll leave the topic unlocked for now, however, unless USEABLE and CREDIBLE evidence of these two being alts can be brought forward, I will lock this topic. We do not just accuse players off of a recent number, it's not evidence, let alone credible, as the amount of people who join, and at what speed changes, maybe he made that account 3 days ago and practically no one has joined since, did you think about that? Seither, Silhouette's attack is a scouting run to verify if he can successfully attack mob.. He scouted with an alt coz he want to save some turns.. :) Once again, I demand EVIDENCE. Until i see some, and more than so and so's word, or someone's number, my ruling stands as it is not an alt attack. Topic remains unlocked for a little longer for evidence to be supplied, however, if none is given soon, it will be locked. Seither contacting Emi is the only way to put this issue to rest, no disrespect intended. :14: no, it isn't. or rather wasn't. Emi=busy, thus if we contacted him EVERYTIME someone says so and so is using alts to gang up on me, he'd NEVER do anything else. I get TONS of IMs and PMs and Emails form people saying someone alt attacked them, odds are, none of them are, a little evidence, (more than a recent number at least) isn't much to ask. However, emi has updated ToS finally (I asked him to 6 times, this thread finally made him do it (I DID send him this thread's link, to prove to him no one was understanding how alts are to be used and to make a CLEAR CUT ruling on it now, looks like he did)) so here is the new part of ToS. Quote from: Emi link=http://forum.spaceo.net/index.php/topic,1233.0.html Please review the limitation and further explanation of multiple account usage. As an example, the destruction of a station by a higher power account in order to facilitate the attack of a lower alt on the protected motherships in the same system is a violation of the Terms of Service, as detailed below "Your accounts may _not_ help each other in any way." Please understand that there is a distinct difference between using multiple accounts and the cooperation of two or more distinct commanders. The cooperation of the commanders is allowed, while the usage of two or more accounts by the same person in the same manner is against the TOS. To determine the nature of an account in question, Space Odyssey will keep a complete record of ingame actions and logins that will be used in the event of a violation of the Terms of Service. Due to this fact, please avoid logging in your account from a friend's computer that also has an account with Space Odyssey and you are in the same alliance or frequently cooperating ingame with him / her. Limitations (I) The maximum amounts of accounts per person You may have multiple accounts only on those circumstances: You do _not_ use your accounts to help one single account. You may _not_ finance a lower power account with a higher power one in order to do damage to lower people using the higher account resources You do _not_ use your multiple accounts to attack one single target. Your accounts may _not_ help each other in any way. You have to play each account as a single entity to ensure the fair play as opposed to your fellow commanders. The multiple accounts should not be used in any way that would have any connection with another account of the same person. This includes taking advantage of the superior power of a higher account to help or facilitate an action of a lower account or otherwise. Therefore, you have enough evidence now, so please submit the info in post 1 to emi for him to take appropriate measures. I shall leave the topic open for now. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 13, 2008, 04:23:31 PM Quote Therefore, you have enough evidence now, so please submit the info in post 1 to emi for him to take appropriate measures. I shall leave the topic open for now. do you mean if i have have enough evidence? or are you saying i do have enough? 0o Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 13, 2008, 10:06:28 PM As of the new defining in ToS, you have enough evidence.
So, contact Emi with the info you posted in the 1st post of this topic. Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Mobius13 on May 13, 2008, 10:26:38 PM k
i dont want him banned or anything... :( Title: Re: Scouting with alts Post by: Seither on May 14, 2008, 07:02:00 PM He'll probably just lose anythign he gained/some penalty, and you'll get your stuff back.
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