Forum - Space Odyssey MMORPG - a massive free online space game

Emi Posted -

Mkay, I am currently working on:

SO WARS - Secret base capacity depends on mothership segment numbers, the more segments you have the more workers / stash can be deposited.
- Any excess amount when the update is implemented will be deposited to the mothership like this: excess workers * 2 + excess stash.
- Once the max capacity is reached for each of the workers / stash excess amount is lost like this: e.g. max stash reached, then you lose worker production & interest, e.g. excess workers  reached, no more growth.
- The max deposit amount will be clearly visible in the secret base, and prob some indications of how much % is beeing used.

Anybody against the cap for sercret base please post and please provide arguments on why you are against it.
You may also express approval and provide arguments on why it would be a good change.

Thank you.

Thought Id start this as a new thread.

Emi - I think the stash cap and worker cap need to work independently, Im not sure I fully understand what your proposing - the language you have used makes it a bit tricky to understand.

Workers are already capped by segments - I believe that the way it works currently is fine.  When you lose segments you lose bio farms, and your worker growth goes negative - meaning workers begin to die off.  This is a nice way for it to work - it gives players a chance to recover segs somehow and work on getting their growth to zero or better again.

For stash, my suggestion is leave the interest rate as it is - but the interest rate will only apply to a certain amount of the stash- and that value should be displayed.

For example if you have 10 million segs, then your stash limit might be 100 trillion for example.  Lets say your adjusted interest rate is 2.5%, that means your income from stash is going to be 2.5 trillion a day.  But maybe you have 250 trillion in your stash - then your income would still only be 2.5 trillion per day.  In the secret base under stash, display the maximum stash available to gain interest - in this example, 100 trillion.

We definitely need a cap - othwerise you create accounts where players no longer have to care about segments and pvp attacks - because their stash is the only real source of income.

As for what cap to put in, its hard to say.  If you make it low - then those that had high stashes running over that amount get an advantage in that they had a bonus for a long time that others are not going to get.  If you make it lower, then the high players will get abig cut in current income, and lower ranked players can hit the cap faster.

So, seems a bit of either/or to me.  The cap will basically effect everyone equally, just that some will be effected immediatly and others wont be effected until later.

Some players have very large stashes at the moment, for example in excess of 500 trillion - the advantage they have already had from no stash limit will be like a cash bonus - the time it takes to stabilize will roughly be the same regardless of where the cap is placed - if its high, then the high end players economies continue to be very high, meaning a long time to catch up - if its lower then their income gets chopped, but the cash reserves remain and will take a long time to equalize.

I think somewhere in the region of 1 million segs = 10 to 50 trillion stash limit is about right.  If you wanted to balance stash and workers income, then it would be about 1 mil segs = 25 tril stash.

didn't even read the whole thing...


WHY CANT  YOU GUYS JUST BE HAPPY WITH THE GAME ALREADY! IT DOESN'T NEED CHANGE!

~slowly walks in front of jessi, hands him a chill pill~
>.>
<.<
~runs~

it doesnt need a change for you. you can still attack people people still attack you.

come back here and say everything is fine when you havent found any 1 2 attack in 4 months

well then maybe u should make ur own alliance and attack tz  :P

or maybe do what everyone suggested. if you are 'too good' to attack anyone, make an alt and raze hell for all i care. you shouldn't be complaining about being rich

Well, the game was designed for a short sharp trip to cap Fleet Power and then reset, starting a new round.

There are a lot of things that could be changed to make a perpetual universe work.

And this is probably one of them.

If changes are not made, AI has won, we rule the Universe, no one need bother playing anymore, our lead is unassailable, in fact I don't even need to play a single turn and I fairly certain in 20 or so months I will cap out. Growth is exponential and the bigger you are, the faster you grow, once you get ahead of the pack ....... You've won, there is no use continuing. No further effort is required.

Making Stash dependent on Segments is a way of reining in this exponential growth and encourages people to play. It will concentrate the relative power of the various commanders and provide competition amongst those at the top end. If there is a healthy PvP atmosphere at the top end then new people will be able to join and mix it up before too long. As it is now, anyone joining this server is wasting their time if they ever think they will be competitive with the top end.

Soon there will be people at the top end who don't play, surrounded by lots of people who just joined who are and will forever remain no threat. They might scrap it out between themselves for whatever rewards that may seem appropriate to themselves, but the older players, the ones who have been with the game since it started, who want to play ... just don't have any reason too.

I like the cap on stash as Amagnon understands it.

As my first official post I would like to agree with TZ on all accounts, especially with him agreeing with amagnon on his version of the stash cap.

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!! although adding new extra stuff like aliens is cool when done CAREFULLY.

and when done to where it wont totally screw everything up

Ok, the problem on SO WARS is the stash interest income is way over the mining facility income, I'm thinking remove the secret base interest completely:

- Remove interest completely and let the mining facilities and other stuff that will follow, like planets take the lead in offline production. Because of the amount of income the interest generates, new sources of income will not be able to keep up, so that's why it should be taken out for SO WARS.

- Workers deposit their production in stash, and make production cycles for secret base every 60 minutes, like the mining facility.
- Refund CP for commander ability that increases interest and disable it
- Refund resources for the mothership module that increases interest and disable it

Suggestions, comments please. Thank you.

i hadn't thought of removing it entirely. i think it could work but id still like to hear what other people think.

production cycles every 60 minutes could be good as long as the production is the same

but if interest was taken out, then there would be no reason to leave cash in ur base. that would take out 1/2 the reason to raid someone.


maybe instead:
lower the interest rate by 50%. make credits kept in hand give no fp/commander power. that way the top end can stop complaining about having too much money and the lower end doesn't lose income off of interest

i like the idea of taking stash interest out but dont like the worker production every 60 mins

I don't like it at all part of the reason you get a gold account is to double your interest and as for lowering it 50% you just took part of my gold also. If you have to much money just attack someone high they will be glad to take some away from you tarzie is on intel all the time.

Well, Gold accounts could have 50% more production from workers on SO WARS...

I'm for removing the interest, there's not much secret base raids and there would still be workers in there and stash credits from production.

The point I'm trying to make is that we would then be able to go forward to making a production evironement for the planets, parts of the raids would then be made on the planets that will be sieged / plundered / attacked / raided. The planets have to be able to produce lots of good stuff and to be a nice target  :)

k so removing the intrest ok so you giong to refund  cp and mothership mod right that giong to take you somestime.

the reason no 1 raid a secret base is simple the change to warp away it so big since almost every 1 has set him self to always try to warp away.

i say you lower it be a big ammount and give normal accounts 0.25% and gold 0.5% wich will infact drop intrest gain below worker production.

also workers give 50% more production but only generate cash every 60min basicly the income be workers is reduced by 34% extra as well.

so basicly this also is a major buff 2 buddy nebbers on warsserver i havent seen them come out of a neb afther the change still so thats either broken or they sit behind there comp for 12 hours wich is pretty sad  :))

so when are planets giong to be put in my income will drop by around 90% and i will still have no 1 2 attack for a while i might aswell build a planet.

since with the income drop all the pvp will grind 2 a big stop since every 1 out of cash add in the dim counter you want to put in vs the totaly broken warp mech if you ask me will basicly stop it entirely. i mean the warp tech were also made for a 6month round you need to change that aswell. just making warp disruptors cost the same as warp stabs and refunding the exess in turns and cps people spend on disruptors will make pvp alot more interesting.

also can you thinkg about a fix for bounty hunting in wars?

Eliminating stash is too much - the high incomes allow a different style of game that is far more interesting than the conventional game that is played up until 10 mil segs or so.

If you eliminate stash income entirely you will kill off much of the games potential.

Mining facilities are only useful for generating cash at the start of a players career, after that the minerals become far more important than the small amount of cash they generate.  Biofarms are similar - they are useful at the start of the game - and become trivial fairly quickly.

If you want planets to be worthwhile, then they need to generate a lot of income.  Id suggest that they need huge resources to manufacture, but yield good returns.

I was thinking of starting a new thread on this Riv, guess I will now - most players are aware of the power of stabilizers and disruptors now.  Your suggestion mirros my own, except I believe the costs should be reversed - making disruptors cheaper than stabilizers.

you cant make it cheaper else in a month i will have enough disruptors to attack some 1 50% my power.

Which is still no one Riv. :-)

Again I can't see anything wrong with Amagnon's thinking.

disruptors shouldn't be made cheaper, but the same price would be fine.

planets  :wow:

workers cant be made 50% more profitable for gold accounts, thats just unfair. there are many good players in my alliance without gold accounts that are doing fine. this would basically send them packing.

well there is also a other problem i just tought off with no intrest to stash.

i wonder what we giong to use to resupply ships with marines i dont think they will take rocks as payment.

the income you will get will drop and the drop will be big boarding is hard as it is and it a huge money sink.
i used like 20 tril on boarding to get some 1's marines drained. boarding is giong to be reduced to a seg attack only

Ok, first please take the disruptors / stabs discussion to the other thread.

Planets:
- The planets will take over the production of the stash, we can't make planets profitable as long as stash interest is the main income source.
- We got a lot of unused turns that will go into planet construction and maybe maintenance
- Worker production is also a major profit generator, making cycle 60 minutes enables planets to serve a higher role in generating profit
- 50% more worker production for Gold (not such a big impact on non-Gold once the planets take over the economy)

The objective:
- To split the secret base income and divide it amoung the planets, making planets conquerable and income generators will stimulate fighting on the planets and for the planets, increasing indirect PvP where the attacker disrupts the supply lines (planets) of enemy, increasing overall galaxy combat.

We got a lot of unused turns that will go into planet construction and maybe maintenance

hmm i dunno about you emi but im short of turns.

## Edited - apologies to Emi for way I presented it earlier ##

The issue with player incomes from stash is not the size of the income - that doesnt really matter.  The problem is the compounding nature of the income - where incomes increase at an increasing rate - therefore spiralling upwards faster and faster.

Theres no real need to reduce incomes at all - all that needs to be done is to stop it being an exponential growth curve, and flatten it to a linear one.  Capping stash by using segments does that nicely, segment growth is basically linear.  There is a slight curve upwards thats attributed to increasing encrypt level, but that is neglible.


Theres no reason why planets cant be profitable just because players have some income from stash - as I outlined earlier, its not the total income thats the problem - its the non-linear growth - a stash cap tied to segs will work.  Planets are likely to need extensive testing to balance - they are not going to be ready tomorrow, which is when we need the fix. 

Whats the right income from planets?  How long will it take to tech them up, or whatever is needed for them to earn enough income to replace stash and workers?  Players will need to research and build them - if the income is tech related, then that means the top players have the same starting position as everyone else - which is huge cut in income, and no faster growth than anyone else to recover.

Surely its better to leave the current income streams and just give planets a good production capabilty.  Workers and stash can be tied to segments - but planets are going to be really hard to control, they are unlike anything else currently in the game - the balancing issues for this project are likely to be nightmarishly difficult - this is a huge change and will really need thorough testing.


No-one who plays consistently at any level has spare turns.  In fact more turns are needed - suggestions have been made regarding adding items from missions that give free travel turns (my idea, convert warp travel items to free travel), and tech turns items (an idea by Chrys, quite a nice idea I think).  This keeps up the incentive to do missions at the high end where the segs growth is so flat its hardly worth doing missions at all.


If stash is removed and workers cut to 15% of current production rates, then planets have to make up 93% of players current incomes - thats only if stash and workers were balanced - and for the AI guys they arent.  Planets will be the ONLY source of income - its a new idea with a huge impact, its got great potential, for going horribly wrong.

Surely it needs to be phased in over time - with slow movements based on player feedback and credible testing.

One other thing thats important to note, the game changes with high incomes - the potential is amazing - only a few players are currently pushing these limits and exploring what can be done.  Cutting current incomes so drastically kills off a game world 99% of the players dont even know exists yet - and they want to see it, I guarantee it.


Planets really need to be in and working before making adjustments to economies, otherwise things can go badly wrong - trying to get it all done in one hit is very likely to be a disaster - it would require a miracle to get it right on the first try. 

Adjusting gold bonuses is likely to annoy players, they either are relying on having them, or planning on being competitive without them.



The conceptual changes this will introduce are huge, it just looks like too big a change to the game fundamentals to rush an implementation.  However, I like planets and I believe they can be added and still keep all the good things about the current game.


The game is 95% working, some issues remain outstanding - but with such a complex system, your always going to have to be making small adjustments to try and keep it balanced.

Direct attacks have been the basis of the game since it began, why change it before its even working properly?  Normal combat still needs work, attacks are currently too weak, and should be increased in value and impact - but these changes would decay them (by 85% or so) to a point that they are not worth making at all. 

Planets are going to be really difficult to integrate I think, they need to be tested thoroughly, phased in slowly with limited tech available to prevent errors being overpowering and then adjusted and fine tuned on implementation.

If planets, workers and stash are all balanced against each other - then direct attacks still have value - and taking planets is also profitable.  Stash and worker caps based on segments, and planets able to generate higher income than either of those individually, but maybe not as much as both combined.

This is a huge change - implementing this on WARS without extensive testing is a big risk, it greatly reduces the value of segments (to 15% of their original value), which up to this point have theen the basis of all PvP action - direct attacks would cease to be an option.

Riv, exactly correct - removing current income sources because "planets need a big role" is uneccessary and a horrible complication that will tilt WARS out of control. 

Planets can have a big role, they just need to be given a decent income.  Making the income from planets tech related is instantly a problem in balancing - they need to be cash investment buckets - so more cash is more profit.

This is an old problem - the problem surfaced with stations not having sufficient hit points and attack.  You need a hybrid system if your going to mix tech and incomes or tech and combat effectiveness - the hybrid system needs to incorporate tech, and cash.

Stash just needs a CAP RELATED TO SEGMENTS AND IT NEEDS TO BE IMPLEMENTED YESTERDAY.  1 segment allows 25 million in the stash is a pretty good value and should keep worker and stash income fairly balanced with each other.  A player with 1 million segments can have 25 trillion stash earning interest - anymore than that doesnt earn interest, for 10 mil segs it becomes 250 trillion interest bearing stash.

Stash interest new mechanic - SO WARS

http://forum.spaceo.net/index.php/topic,3683.0.html

Locked, please post in the updates section.

Thank you