Forum - Space Odyssey MMORPG - a massive free online space game

Is there a guide about designs I could read?  I have read what it says in the main guide but I want some more info.  I understand designing but need help making good designs.

Try reading the two stickies, "Supership Help" and "Swarmer Help", they're chock-full of useful information. ^_^

would be a point.. read before you post...

I did look, and didn't think too highly of it.  I mean like a proper written stratagy guide.  has anybody made one?

not really, and for a very good reason.  something like that would be MUCH more complex then you may think.  the closest to how to design is what I am doing, and you probably woulnd't want that, as some of it is just "meh, let's make it with THIS much"  so you see, there is no 1 way to design ANYTHING, even the best way to do it is most likely partly "guess-work" because different size ships need different things.

If anyone wants to help, I can start working on gathering information to try and find the complete equations. I find myself sitting online with no turns or playing the market, so I have time to do so. I have some basic framework to start with from Lunanova, during my time with The Connection. But an actual guide, might take too much work to be fesible. Even from the two I know to be considered authorities in the aspect (ars68 and gunfighter_frank).

well, what I would suggest is to start off figuring out the individual stat prices.  like for instant, for the most part, 1 point of attack on a weapon will cost 10 credits each.  for most of them, this will work except of course for stats being lowered so low (energy and space) and % stats that are exponential.

another one you may want to ask is ronald, as he has claimed more then once he has succesfully copied down all design formulas...

Most stat prices start off exponential and then turn linear.

This is what you are referring to ars. and yes Chronos, I've noticed that it only works after a certain point.

Attribute	Cost (credits)
Weight	-1000
Energy	-3
Space	+165
Defense Point (special)	+500
HP (special)	+10
Weapon Attack	+10
HP (armor)	+15
Marine	+3.5
Energy (generated from powercore)	+2.5
Computer Acc.	+2000^(%-1)
Def. bonus (%)	+2000^(%-1)
Shield ABS	+2000^(%-1)

All these are from lunanova, while I was in the connection.
The one remaining equation is that 1500 attack = 1% acc on a weapon. (They go in opposite directions)
The weight I've not confirmed for everything. The marines I haven't confirmed. And the % equations I can't get to work. Also, too low of numbers and these values don't work (as Chronos pointed out).

Ronald any insight would be appreciated.

Assuming we're looking for the difference between an x and it's successor.

Computer percents follow:

500 * 2^x


Weight starts off with:

a/(2^(x))


Armor:
a = 10.638.400

Computer:
a = 256.000

Marines:
a = NA

Powercore:
a = 204.800

Shields:
a = 204.800

Special:
a = 16.000

Weapon:
a = 204.800


There is a strange shift where the algorithms overlap, however.

A) that's confusing, and B) You guys feel free to make one, I'm not, to complex and I suck at math.

Good thing I can do some simple Calculus in my head. L:) I'll start some experiments then, since there appears to be enough interest. Ronald if you would like, please send any information you have to me ID#3229. I would appreciate the help.

Here's some info.

To sum up the computer percent differences between 0% and x%, use the equation:

500 * (2^(x+1) - 1)

And, I believe, to sum up the differences in the first part of the weight formula between 0 and x, you use:

3.276.800 * (1 - (1/2)^(x+1))


I wuv my Graphing Calculator (http://www.pacifict.com/) ^_^, expensive though. :-/

Chronos, thanks for those equations. I'll test them at the latest tomorrow. I have about 9 hours to finish a midterm project for Computer Science.

I'm having trouble with the energy formula for weapons though.

I know that, for the first part of the equation, if you increase the energy from (x) to (x+1), you increase the deduction by:

10.000.000
----------
 (x² + x)

But I can't figure out the formula for it's sum. Anyone have any ideas? It sorta looks like a limited growth formula, but it ain't no normal one, I believe.

Oh and the difference between (x)% and (x+1)% ACU for (x > 29), you use the formula:

10 * 2^{(x - 30)}

Which sums up to:

10 * (2^{(x - 29)} - 1)

I'm pretty sure that's correct.

I've confirmed the Computer % equation, but i think your weight equation might have an error somewhere. I'm looking into that right now.

Energy seems to be like weight, starts exponential then goes linear. That's something else I'm looking into right now since I have one "constant" available to test that. I think a lot of things do this exponential to linear bit.

I think I need to test the percent equation in the other spots that use it (Special, Shield, and Weapon) as well as your newly presented equation for accuracy.

You know whats funny about this... when you gentlemen finally get it Sir Emi is going to make some tiny change that throws everything off. But all the luck to ya. And I'm impressed so far.

Thankfully, I don't care if Sir Emi changes the equations after we figure them out. For me it isn't about getting an advantage, it's about the challenge. I am a computer science major at a college, so being able to figure out an equation from just the end result can be entertaining as well as keeping the mind engaged. Besides changes mean something new to figure out. That and if enough people figure it out even after changes, he might just quit making changes realizing that we are going to figure them out anyway. I don't know him well enough to determine that anyway. And on one more note, what difference does it make if we can accurately calculate cost before actually designing the systems anyway?

he doesn't change them because people figure them out, he changes them becuase there is something wrong with it or he found a way to make it better. And you guys, by figuring it out, you might be able to help him find better ways or better equations for the game, which would enhance the gameplay greatly.

Heh, you never know. ^_^


Anyways, I want to know all the formulae so I can make a program that makes it a lot more convenient to design ships. You can design the who ship at once, instead of one component at a time. Of course, you'll still need to log in and enter the information manually.

I was looking at it for the same reason Chronos. I even know how to do some programming in Java if that might help you any.

Hey Chronos, if you decide to follow through with making a program, do you mind maybe sending it to me-via email?

He'd post a link to it on the forum if he does it.

I would?

Anyways, it got put off. End of the year rush stuff. You know, six hours of homework everyday to get caught up. Slowely loosing grasp on reality. Heh, you think I'm kidding, but I'm not. @_@

Now, when I do make it, I'll have to decide whether to make it public or clan. But I'm leaning towards public, mainly because I don't want to deal with clan hoppers. >_<

Of course, if it is made clan, I'll make sure to send it to all my friends, too.

P.S. I wuv Java! It's my favorite. ^_^

Hey, Finis, are you any good at GUIs? I'm not that good at designing stuff like that.

You should make it public, that way the whole of SO can benifit.

meh i got formulas i sue that arent exactly straightforward but they work :))

lol, yea...a lot of people have those.

Bah, the real ones don't translate well to single mathematical formulas. They're mostly two-parters.

yea, that's true.

... After studying all these formulae for this long, I beginning to believe it's possible to completely optimise a ship with only having to specify the ration between effective attack and effective defense. Excluding swarm bonus, crew bonus, and the defense stat, for now anyways.

More on this later...

heh nice... ive been trying to go throguh formulas to simplify them enoguh for new alliance members but im stuck on weapons %ages adn specail isnt as straightforward either... best way ive figured out to do it is to get another variable in teh equation by putting in a attack/hp value were the weapon costs more then 1k then using the cost as another number in the equation, after which it is pretty straightforward... only problem is explainign all that to a newbie >_<

Ya, the way I was thinking was to get a weapon/hitpoints ratio space ratio, then using that to get an energy for both and then thinking them separately.

The way you twink a weapon's percentage is by finding the attack value for 1% and using the following the formula:

And then rounding. Then you add one to it because you start at one rather then zero.

Of course, that only works when the percentage is less then thirty. But, if the percentage you get from that formula is more then thirty you can just set the percentage to thirty, figure out the appropriate attack for thirty, and run it through this formula to get the final twinkin' stats:


And then add thirty to it to get your final accuracy percentage. Of course, this is all based on a constant computer percentage, but I'm planning on making a chart listing attack energy supplies and their corresponding optimum computer arrangement. Though, it'd only work if you're only relying on hitpoints rather then defense, but I digress.

But, ya, it would be hard to explain to a newbie. Heck, I'd have trouble explaining it to myself! ^_^"

(Added:)
The simplified version of the first formula is:


But the simplified version of the second one is massively unwieldly to use unless you got a good graphing calculator or computer math program. Somewhat simplified, it's:

you fellows do the forumlas I dont do well with forumlas I just know what works and it comes.  I get the picture in my head then my hands make it so.  I just know about what this ship is capable of and like a sculptor I make it come to pass.  I build more from my gut feelings than any forumlas.  I build the least amount that is necessary to get the job done. If I have a ship I need to kill I build another ship to kill it.  I can see the stats of a ship and make one to kill it and survive the encounter.  many times it is the same price or some times even cheaper.  however with all the new good ship designers it is getting harder and harder to build killer ship the same cost or less. But I can still do it in other ways.  the best thing to do is to experiment for yourself and find what works best for you. myself I like High acu and abs on my ships. however sometimes it works to be better with different stats and systems. it just depends on what you what the ship to do as to how it is designed.  I have built most of my ships with efficientcy and effectiveness in mind for the cost.  however I have build ships that are very cost inefficent for specific reasons.  what you what the ship to do vs cost is the desiding factor in your design.
with the advent of the CPs ships can be lopsided and still work well for an individual and not for another.

Yes, but often times certain stats have formulae that deviating from them will only hurt you, but I see what'cha sayin'.

Don't get me wrong, there's still a lot of designin' left to do afterwards, it's just I'm using mathematical analysis to point people in the right direction. Heck, if math did everything, how come I'm still so far behind. ^_^"

... Man, math is hard.

Anyways, I gots some more info.

If you're using two computers, the maximum bonus you can recieve for x energy is approximately:

(http://forum.spaceo.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389.0;attach=151)

Where p is equal to:

10933, if haven't taken into account the space and initial energy in x.

0, if you have taken it into account or already paid it.

Oh, and here's the WGC generated webpage. Yonder Link! (http://chronos.hollosite.com/comp-2-opt/index.html)

(New:) Bah! Stupid rounding errors, this is why I'm making a chart rather than using formulae! >_<

wow i didnt get nything in that formula >_< my formulas are simple... or atleast onyl involve one variable XD... and yeah frank you build them off gut feeling, but if you need to get a system to cost 3 changing one number at a tiem really slows ya down vs using a formula

Ya, I work with optimization, which is inherently more complicated. ^_^"

You see, with your formulae, you start with basic rules and follow a linear path and linear formulae to a simple solution. I start off with, something like (d/dx) (Atk - 1500x)(0.01 +0.01x) = 0 if I'm lucky. You see, that's pretty straight forward. What's hard is taking multvarable systems and finding the optimum values while still following other rules not derived from the system, and then making sense of it all.

If you want something really hard (like, Collage/Grad School hard), try finding the equation that gives you the approximated bonus you can receive for one stat (Atk% or Def%) if you have three computers.

Me? I'm just pooped out right now. I'll probably do that when I get back from vacation mid-to-late august.

That's confusing though, Frank's way is much simpler and takes less effort work out.

Ya, but my equations conquer more complicated and harder to answer questions.

Besides, I'm not suggesting you do these pen-and-pencil style. They're for documentation purposes, and I'm eventually going to put them into a Java program for ease of use.

How to use ^ ?
And how much will be +2000^(40-1) ? I want to test shield formula works or not

^ in internet terms generally (including this case) means "to the power of".

For example,

5^2 = 25
2^3 = 8
10^6 = 1,000,000

However, if you delve into the magical world of programming, it usually means XOR. But you probably won't see that.

2000^(40-1) is equal to more than a unquardragintillion. (<-- Real word! ^_^)

Sorry, real life kept me busy for a while. I can continue to offer assistance for this. And Chronos to answer your question from a while back. I have some basic knowledge of GUI's and am capable of doing so.

hi lads

Well, if it is useful to any extent, I have an excel file that does a lot of work for you....but it's nowhere near the automatation you want.....you still have to figure out some things. I'll keep working on it.....you know, "baby steps". Best way to go.

Heya.
Made any progress on the equations?
I'm another CS student, might try to work out some of this myself.
It's interesting to try to figure this out....